Age does not wither her

[hazelk]

They’re discussing the infamous decline in quality of aging TV dramas on Whedonesque. Again. I was going to post this but it seems the membership is closed.

I watched Buffy from the beginning but although I always found it entertaining it’s the last two seasons that transformed liking into love. I’d agree that they are different from the preceding seasons. All the seasons are different but these two more so both in tone and in the way they use metaphor.

Not that there’s no metaphor. In season six I found Buffy’s death and inability to re-connect with her old life a great overarching metaphor for the depression and loss of identity many young people go through when they finally move out from the relative safety of family/education. On top of that I would also argue that the very lack of the phlebotinin type elements that acted as metaphors in previous seasons is a metaphor for the seeming mundanity of the life most people have to settle for when forced to leave their childhood dreams behind.

Season seven happens to be my favourite and is different again. On the surface it looks like a return to the old storytelling approach but I think it’s more literary. It’s a little like the way books like 1984 and Ishirigo’s Never Let Me Go are terrible novels if you judge them in sf terms, their world-building is shambolic to put it mildly but that’s not the point, the point is the people not the world.

As for the idea of the series ending with The Gift I have to admit that although season five had some great episodes (Fool for Love and The Body) I thought the attempt to weld a big epic story onto Buffy never really worked (it was a much better fit on Angel) and I have serious misgivings about Buffy giving up her life for Dawn as a series ending. It’s a little too close to Darla’s self sacrifice in Lullaby in the way it seems to conflate motherhood and lethal self–abnegation, the idea that death is the best you can do for your children. I do like the line about the hardest thing in the world being to live in it but particularly because in season six we get to see that confirmed. Lots of times and in lots of different ways.

And now I'll get back to not marking scripts.

Comments

[elisi]

Amen to every word! And you might find my latest post interesting. (I found some excellent articles in The Sunday Times!)

[elisi]

I found some excellent articles in The Sunday Times!
...about children with special needs.

Somehow the last bit of that sentence never made it onto screen. *headdesk*

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

Season 7 had flaws, but the ending of "Chosen", its final metaphor, was extremely satisfying in regard to Buffy's journey and the themes of growing-up and female empowerment. "The Gift" was moving but wouldn't have worked as a relevant closure for the series.

[azdak.livejournal.com]

Marking scripts in May? Are you at Oxbridge?
Couldn't agree more about Ishiguro - but I think that book is pointedly not SF - not only is the world-building "terrible" but he's simply not interested in exploring the implications of the society he hints at. The world just is the way it is and can't be changed.

[ann1962]

have serious misgivings about Buffy giving up her life for Dawn as a series ending. It’s a little too close to Darla’s self sacrifice in Lullaby in the way it seems to conflate motherhood and lethal self–abnegation, the idea that death is the best you can do for your children.

Yes. This has always been a bit of an issue with me. What Buffy and Darla did, some mothers would do without a second thought and I think this was Whedon's point about love giving you the strength of resolve. But on the heels of the lack of parental guidance most of the scoobies received, it really seems wrought. Isn't there some healthy middle for parents?

[elisi]

I think that's one reason I like the last two seasons so much - it has been suggested that S6 is a very good analogy of a working mother, going through the daily grind with hardly a word of thanks, because it's nothing more than what everyone expects (not that it's as depressing as what we see of course). And then at the end of S7 we see 'the children' all grown up - strong and confident and ready to start their own lives. (Not that the process was easy of course, but every mother screws up somehow...) :)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Well put :)

[swsa.livejournal.com]

I agree with all of this completely. Had it ended in S5, I wouldn't even be here right now. It was S6 that motivated me to get online and see what other people were saying, because I was just so blown away by the show. And I had watched from the night the Pilot premiered. And yet nothing affected me the way Buffy's resurrection and struggle did. It is rather depressing that this argument is popping up yet again. I had felt that as time went on, people were starting to see some of the great things in those final seasons, but maybe we need another 10 years or so.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Yes thank you for posting that, I don't get the Times but it looks likes something worth following.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I stil cry at the end of The Gift but find it quite hard going to watch the whole thing. All the gears cranking into place.

And you're half-way through marking too. Die scripts , die!

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Not Dxbridge, just the Godless Institution. Everything's early this year because of Easter.

Never Let Me Go was the on the Guardian Book Club a few weeks ago and Ishirigo said he didn't decide the children were clones untill quite late in, he just had an idea about some kids at an odd kind of boarding school. Some of the comments were interesting, people accepted that it wasn't about the implications of cloning as such but still found the book disatisfying because none of the protagonists tried to rebel ie do the obvious scifi thing plot thing and change or react to their world rather than each other.

How's your play going now the birth pangs are over? It sounded really exciting.

[azdak.livejournal.com]

none of the protagonists tried to rebel ie do the obvious scifi thing plot thing and change or react to their world rather than each other

That curious passivity is what I rather thought Joss Whedon was referring to when he said "It's absolutely his sensibility. It's The Remains of the Clone". I took the whole set-up as being a metaphor for, well, the human condition, I suppose, so rebelling against that society made as much sense as rebelling aginst being human and getting sick and old - you can get angry, but there's nothing you can actually *do* about it. It's really intriguing to know that the clone idea became part of the concept so late.

The play is over, thank God, although I'm about to start on the next one (Faust 1, probably going to be on end of November). It was an exhilerating experience until the last few days, which were nightmarish, and I plunged into a ghastly pit of depression immediately afterwards, where I lost all faith in my own ability and was convinced Faust was going to be an almighty failure, but I've since talked to other directors who said they go through exactly the same thing. It was a horrible shock - I was expecting to be gloomy and to miss the production, not convinced I was a talentless no-hoper (I don't yet know if it's going to have a run outside the Seminar - my directing prof, who's the one with the contacts, is currently in Germany at a festival with a production of her own, but she gets back on Monday and I'll have to get on at her then to start pulling strings).

[timeofchange.livejournal.com]

I have serious misgivings about Buffy giving up her life for Dawn as a series ending. It’s a little too close to Darla’s self sacrifice in Lullaby in the way it seems to conflate motherhood and lethal self–abnegation, the idea that death is the best you can do for your children. I do like the line about the hardest thing in the world being to live in it but particularly because in season six we get to see that confirmed. Lots of times and in lots of different ways.

This is brilliant! The whole essay is excellent, especially as I totally agree with you. *g*

[mediumdave.livejournal.com]

How inconsiderate of Buffy to still be alive after her Grand Gesture is over, you might say.

(I posted a mildly snarky reaction to the article, under the name "Kansas", at Whedonesque; hopefully the mods will not consider it too ad hominem.)

[maeve-rigan.livejournal.com]

Coming in late to say I'm very much in agreement. And I suspect it's becoming the lazy journalist's toss-off-comment to say that BtVS should have ended after season 5, as if that reflected some kind of fan consensus or something, when it certainly does not.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Oh exactly. I can appreciate the self-sacrifice in the context of the later seasons. Like Joss says it's a beautiful thing. But if it had ended with that there would be some creepier resonance. Male heroes die to save the world and it's a noble thing but if a woman does the same she's just doing what's expected. In patriachal societies she's just a vessel for the child.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

To be fair there were quite a few pro 6/7 commentators on the thread. Liking season six seems to be almost repectable now so maybe seven's day will come. I think the original article was by some bitter old TWOP mod, never forgive, never forget.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Thank you! And have friended you.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Oh I think I saw that. They seem to be quite strict about that sort of thing there though. Pity. Everyone's so nice!

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Yes, the whole repeat something often enough and it becomes the truth. It's very frustrating.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

"It's absolutely his sensibility. It's The Remains of the Clone"
Hee, I wish I'd said that. The clone thing did seem the obvious Ishirigoism. Imitations of life.

Putting on play sounds very, very scary. Is it still worth it? Or do you think it would be better with an outside run, to have some independent audience feedback at least in the bums on seats sense?

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

I agree with you completely. I started my Buffy watching with The Gift of all things. It gave me a very strange introduction to the show, I must say. I then watched the whole series from start to the end of season 5 before season 6 started. I think season 6 was a brilliant examination of depression, and the struggle many young people have to figure out where they fit in the adult world. I loved season 7 too, and Chosen is such a perfect conclusion to the story: an ending only in that one chapter is done, and life stretches out before them.

[azdak.livejournal.com]

Joss is The Man, at least when it comes to funny sayings.

Is putting on a play worth it? Hee, it feels like a toss-up at times, but mostly my answer would be that there is nothing else in the world worth doing compared to this (inventing a cure for cancer? Pah. World peace? Boooring.)

[mediumdave.livejournal.com]

In Tara Ariano's case, though, I think it's something more than laziness. More like a grudge, actually. After Season 5 Whedon and Co. did something you're not supposed to do in a TV series: Changed their formula and took the story in a different direction. And rather than being instantly punished for it by plunging ratings and cancellation, they were rewarded with two more successful seasons and widespread (if not universal) praise from critics. This was not supposed to happen, and it made Tara and her pals at TWoP (in their minds) into fools. So this is their way of getting back at the people who showed them up: To endlessly repeat the "Seasons 6-7 of Buffy suuucked" meme. Petty, sure, but consider the source.

(I'd never post this at Whedonesque because the mods don't want it to turn into a TWoP-bashing site, and I have to respect their wishes.)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Yes that open road and the beginning of the beginning of a smile. And the contrast with the same setting at the end of Becoming, which i've been rewatching lately. I miss Buffy.

[ann1962]

And that is what gives Chosen so much texture I think, knowing that Buffy got through all of that intact. She births (most importantly) a healthy self in all of that too, not just the self sacrifice for others.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I got the impression that the TWoP people weren't to keen on S5 either. Or anything after the High School years but I guess that would make things even more frustrating for them. Four more years instead of just two.

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

I miss Buffy
Me too. Thank heavens for DVDs, and fanfic, and the interesting (and interested) folks who keep thinking and discussing my favourite show.

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

Umm, I meant to say keep thinking about...I assume everyone thinks in general. LOL.

[mediumdave.livejournal.com]

Twice as bad!

Now that you mention it, BtVS was always a universe in flux... romantic tension between characters was resolved instead of being dragged out for years... the kids graduated and went to college. Buffy dropped out of college. She acquired (basically) an adopted sister. She lost her mother. Willow apparently changed sexual orientation. All of that happened before Buffy came back from the grave in S6.

For all that they claim to dislike TV cliches, I think the TWoP VIP's are deeply attached to the idea that television is a shallow medium: Trite formulaic, predictable. Believing this helps them maintain an air of superiority when writing about the medium. BtVS was something they could never quite wrap their minds around: It was a fluffy teen drama on the surface, with a deeply serious foundation, and this contradiction confused them. When it became less fluffy and more serious in the later seasons, they naturally didn't like it any more.

Heh, I could make my own post out of that thought, but it might not make me too popular. :D