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hazelkSome thoughts about fic in response to a now friendslocked discussion of the relative merits of Buffy S8 and Buffy fanfic.
I used to read a lot of fic. There’s the usual 90% of everything is crap factor (and sometimes crap is exactly what you’re looking for) but I’ve certainly read fic that was more literary than S8. More poetic, more stylish, more funny and more disturbing (in both good and bad senses of the word). Having said that I think if I had to pinpoint a difference between all of those fics and S8 it would be is that S8 doesn’t feel safe. This is of course entirely subjective but I think I can justify it in a number of ways some of which apply specifically to Buffy fanfic (and me as a reader) and some to fanfic in general.
The specific reasons have to do not with literary qualities but with medium and community. BtVS was TV series and TV is a visual medium. Not that the dialogue wasn’t distinctive and important but it wasn’t (for me) the main thing. For evidence I’d offer the success of episodes like Hush and The Body which do without the trademark dialogue but also the experience of watching large swathes of the series with the sound off for vidding purposes and having it still feel like Buffy in a way that reading the scripts doesn’t. What reading the scripts does feel like is reading Buffy fandom, which on the interwebs is very much a text based medium. Fanfic is not only text based but a direct product of fandom and fandom conversations. I think it’s that and being myself a participant in those conversations that can makes fic appealing but also gives it a safety factor. I know these writers, not personally perhaps but what their positions are on fannish issues and where they fit within the various subcultures in a much more detailed and insider way than I know Joss Whedon or any of the comic writers. Even with a new writer it rarely takes long to figure out their fannish influences, where they’re coming from, where they fit. Plots may twist but although the specifics of the twist are not predictable the point of it almost always feels familiar, the snark is never a boondog or so you convince yourself to maintain social order. Published writers and their original stories can be predictable too but I don’t know them, they don’t know me and that outsider quality changes the nature of the contract between us.
The general reason is that, for me as a reader, fic’s relationship to its source text almost automatically acts as a filter between it and world. The most terrible things can happen or be touched in fanfic but because there’s always the source text to refer them to they don’t feel as real. I don’t get that sense of distance between the same characters and similar events in the original stories. Where there’s no fictional precedent it feels more as if you’re being exposed directly to the author’s naked brain or less grossly their experience of the world. Not always a good thing or even an interesting thing but naked brains are never entirely safe.
I used to read a lot of fic. There’s the usual 90% of everything is crap factor (and sometimes crap is exactly what you’re looking for) but I’ve certainly read fic that was more literary than S8. More poetic, more stylish, more funny and more disturbing (in both good and bad senses of the word). Having said that I think if I had to pinpoint a difference between all of those fics and S8 it would be is that S8 doesn’t feel safe. This is of course entirely subjective but I think I can justify it in a number of ways some of which apply specifically to Buffy fanfic (and me as a reader) and some to fanfic in general.
The specific reasons have to do not with literary qualities but with medium and community. BtVS was TV series and TV is a visual medium. Not that the dialogue wasn’t distinctive and important but it wasn’t (for me) the main thing. For evidence I’d offer the success of episodes like Hush and The Body which do without the trademark dialogue but also the experience of watching large swathes of the series with the sound off for vidding purposes and having it still feel like Buffy in a way that reading the scripts doesn’t. What reading the scripts does feel like is reading Buffy fandom, which on the interwebs is very much a text based medium. Fanfic is not only text based but a direct product of fandom and fandom conversations. I think it’s that and being myself a participant in those conversations that can makes fic appealing but also gives it a safety factor. I know these writers, not personally perhaps but what their positions are on fannish issues and where they fit within the various subcultures in a much more detailed and insider way than I know Joss Whedon or any of the comic writers. Even with a new writer it rarely takes long to figure out their fannish influences, where they’re coming from, where they fit. Plots may twist but although the specifics of the twist are not predictable the point of it almost always feels familiar, the snark is never a boondog or so you convince yourself to maintain social order. Published writers and their original stories can be predictable too but I don’t know them, they don’t know me and that outsider quality changes the nature of the contract between us.
The general reason is that, for me as a reader, fic’s relationship to its source text almost automatically acts as a filter between it and world. The most terrible things can happen or be touched in fanfic but because there’s always the source text to refer them to they don’t feel as real. I don’t get that sense of distance between the same characters and similar events in the original stories. Where there’s no fictional precedent it feels more as if you’re being exposed directly to the author’s naked brain or less grossly their experience of the world. Not always a good thing or even an interesting thing but naked brains are never entirely safe.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-04 05:22 pm (UTC)Not sure 'fun' is how I'd term my posts... (One thing I noticed, looking back, was how many people on my flist were reading & discussing/posting about s8 when it they first came out. Now there's...
I had a thought today about one of the greatest weaknesses of Season 8. The format doesn't allow time to linger on a intensely emotional moment.
Not sure it's just the format... After the Fall (and all the Spike comics) handle emotionally heavy scenes very well (IMHO of course). I think the main problem (and this has been something I've said from the start) is the missing time between 'Chosen' and the start of s8. We do not know how the characters ended up where they are, and that - for most people - creates an instant emotional disconnect between the characters in the comics and those on screen. Actually, the whole thing is very cleverly (and wittily) demonstrated in this post.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-04 06:05 pm (UTC)Nah, I'm the odd duck who enjoys reading a dissenting opinion (from my own, that is) as long as it's well-thought out.
After the Fall (and all the Spike comics) handle emotionally heavy scenes very well (IMHO of course)
The most recent heartbreaking event in AtF #15 being a good example. But I think Season 8 falls victim to having a bigger agenda than AtF, a more sprawling story that necessitates being pushed forward at a faster pace. AtF has been one big arc pretty much or has been described as a long Angel movie/mini-series. Where as Buffy is trying to do the Season format but we're losing the time needed to really dig into these emotional moments. Compare AtF with multiple panels of Angel holding Connor to just the one of Buffy and Xander in S8 #15. In AtF the moment of grief lingers, in Buffy it seems to be over too soon.
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Date: 2009-01-05 10:31 am (UTC)Well you might enjoy it then. (Although I think over time it changes from well-thought out to wtf?)
AtF has been one big arc pretty much or has been described as a long Angel movie/mini-series. Where as Buffy is trying to do the Season format but we're losing the time needed to really dig into these emotional moments.
That is very true. s8 is certainly ambitious, but it should have a narrower focus, I think - there are so many characters and different stories, that it is hard to keep track of them all, especially since there is so long between issues. The comic format lends itself far better to single, major stories. (I *adore* comic books, my favourite probably being Elfquest - and now *there* is an epic tale that just *works*!)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-04 06:57 pm (UTC)Subjectively speaking, the way Lynch beats you over the head with his emotional beats is one of my major irritations with the AtF comics. Particularly as so many of them seem to echo what's been done on the show already (Connor gets his memories back) but turn it up to eleven (Connor gets his memories back to when he was a fetus!!!) and thereby miss all the nuance of the original.
We do not know how the characters ended up where they are
We don't know but it's easy and fun to infer. I rather like it when the story assumes the audience isn't stupid.
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Date: 2009-01-05 10:22 am (UTC)True. And I'm sure that there are a lot of people for whom the focus of the story is just not interesting, since most fans are very selective these days about what kind of story they read (Spuffy, Spangel, Fanged Four, Giles/Anya, Willow-centric), and s8 is missing something for them. And yes, my flist is overwhelmingly made up of Spike & Spuffy fans. But... the reaction I kept seeing re s8 (and kept having myself) was 'Who are these people and what have they done with my characters?' (Also, surely if it is supposed to be canon, then it ought to appeal to everyone who was a fan of the show? I'm not saying they should *like* it, since opinion on the show itself is so very divided, but they ought to recognise it as in essence the same thing.)
Subjectively speaking, the way Lynch beats you over the head with his emotional beats is one of my major irritations with the AtF comics.
I see your point, but it is not something that bothers me, personally. And, a lot of the stuff is wonderfully new. :)
We don't know but it's easy and fun to infer. I rather like it when the story assumes the audience isn't stupid.
Thinking about it, I would much have preferred the story about how Buffy ended up where she is. What happened to change her, how did she become the withdrawn, ruthless leader we see in s8? Yes, my favourite thing of all is character development, so I am biased, but I like to see a journey, not having to make one up myself. (One of the major problems with S1 of Torchwood was not knowing Jack's story, and thus not understanding great swathes of his motivation. But they fixed that, and whilst that season will never be 'good' in any sense of the word, it makes a lot more sense on re-watch.)
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Date: 2009-01-05 04:30 pm (UTC)One of the standard way early season fans dismiss S6/7 is to say they don't recognise the characters. That their Buffy/Willow/Xander Giles would never do that. I think the phrase is really just shorthand for not recognising the characters they used to like/not *liking* the characters.
The withdrawn, ruthless leader we see in s8
That's not who I see. It sounds like Angel in his beige period, which was a story that hit a lot of people's buttons and it feels as if some people would *like* to see that to the point of seizing on every piece of evidence that could point that way while ignoring all the indications of the contrary. In terms of sharing thoughts and feelings S8 Buffy has been closer to Xander than she's been for years, at least as open with Dawn and Willow as they are with her and her relationship with Satsu was very honest and direct.
This year the issue isn't her ability to connect with friends/family/loved ones but with humanity as a whole. Thing is she's never done that. She was an outsider at high school (like Holden said). She recruited the rest of her class (but no wider than that) to act as cannon fodder in the battle with mayor but those connections were not maintained. The only people she made any effort with in college were Parker and Riley, she never made friends at the Doublemeat Palace and while her school councillor role had potential Cassie died and Amanda was a potential. It's a flaw that's been hidden in plain sight throughout the series and I love way it's being made central now.
As for ruthless I remember the Buffy who pulverized the Master's bones, enjoyed dropping an church organ on Spike and firing that stolen rocket launcher. Or the Buffy who was prepared to let the whole multiverse be destroyed so she could spend a few seconds longer as Dawn's protector. She's always had ruthless in her just what it's used in service of has changed and I like Buffy all fired up with a cause that's bigger than herself and her friends/family/boyfriend. I like seeing a woman with power dealing with the host of new issues that brings with it. It's not as if she doesn't have doubts or qualms about what she's doing.
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Date: 2009-01-07 08:23 pm (UTC)That is very true, but speaking for me *personally* that was never the case. 'Liking' them is not something I've ever been bothered by. F.ex. I don't 'like' the AR, but I can't deny that it isn't OOC for Spike to behave how he did, and I understand why they went that route. I 'like' a lot of things in s8, but still think it OOC.
at least as open with Dawn and Willow as they are with her
No arguments there!
This year the issue isn't her ability to connect with friends/family/loved ones but with humanity as a whole.
I started writing out this whole thing about the Slayers being Watcher-less, and Buffy's job necessitating her being hidden, but it wasn't going anywhere, so I'll spare you my rambling.
Re. Buffy's ruthlessness, then the examples you use are all about her being emotionally invested in something, and her actions spring from that. It wasn't ruthlessness that made her ready to sacrifice the world in The Gift, but reaching her limit and being unable to kill her own sister - i.e. love. Of course she has to be ruthless in doing her job - she can't hesitate when it comes to killing things - but that doesn't mean that she is by nature a ruthless person. As she tells Kendra, her emotions give her power. She knows this, and uses it. (In S7 f.ex. she tries her very best to be ruthless, especially in 'Get It Done', and we see how uncomfortable this makes her.)
Having pondered this whole comic-book-ness in the last few days, then I think that when it comes to AtF it flows naturally from the show. I can analyse that comic as if it were the show, even though the format is vastly reduced. The characters' actions and motivations can be traced back directly to their history, and I always understand where they come from, whether I like the developments or not. I can't do that with s8 - increasingly, the comic and the show are at odds in their portrayal of these people, and although it might be possible to join them up it requires a lot of mental gymnastics, a willingness to jump over the huge gaps that have been created. s8 can be analysed on it's own, and there is certainly enough there to work with, but I quite simply can't get comic and canon to align in any meaningful way. I hope that makes my position clearer?
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Date: 2009-01-07 09:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-08 06:45 am (UTC)I can see it, if I really, really try. I think my problem is that s8 has just been such a monumental disappointment (sort of a bit like what Disney did to The Jungle Book), that I don't think the merits outweigh the compromises. I'm glad that some people feel different, and wish I could see what you see. Maybe I will once it's finished.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-08 09:02 pm (UTC)