On fanfic

[hazelk]

Some thoughts about fic in response to a now friendslocked discussion of the relative merits of Buffy S8 and Buffy fanfic.

I used to read a lot of fic. There’s the usual 90% of everything is crap factor (and sometimes crap is exactly what you’re looking for) but I’ve certainly read fic that was more literary than S8. More poetic, more stylish, more funny and more disturbing (in both good and bad senses of the word). Having said that I think if I had to pinpoint a difference between all of those fics and S8 it would be is that S8 doesn’t feel safe. This is of course entirely subjective but I think I can justify it in a number of ways some of which apply specifically to Buffy fanfic (and me as a reader) and some to fanfic in general.

The specific reasons have to do not with literary qualities but with medium and community. BtVS was TV series and TV is a visual medium. Not that the dialogue wasn’t distinctive and important but it wasn’t (for me) the main thing. For evidence I’d offer the success of episodes like Hush and The Body which do without the trademark dialogue but also the experience of watching large swathes of the series with the sound off for vidding purposes and having it still feel like Buffy in a way that reading the scripts doesn’t. What reading the scripts does feel like is reading Buffy fandom, which on the interwebs is very much a text based medium. Fanfic is not only text based but a direct product of fandom and fandom conversations. I think it’s that and being myself a participant in those conversations that can makes fic appealing but also gives it a safety factor. I know these writers, not personally perhaps but what their positions are on fannish issues and where they fit within the various subcultures in a much more detailed and insider way than I know Joss Whedon or any of the comic writers. Even with a new writer it rarely takes long to figure out their fannish influences, where they’re coming from, where they fit. Plots may twist but although the specifics of the twist are not predictable the point of it almost always feels familiar, the snark is never a boondog or so you convince yourself to maintain social order. Published writers and their original stories can be predictable too but I don’t know them, they don’t know me and that outsider quality changes the nature of the contract between us.

The general reason is that, for me as a reader, fic’s relationship to its source text almost automatically acts as a filter between it and world. The most terrible things can happen or be touched in fanfic but because there’s always the source text to refer them to they don’t feel as real. I don’t get that sense of distance between the same characters and similar events in the original stories. Where there’s no fictional precedent it feels more as if you’re being exposed directly to the author’s naked brain or less grossly their experience of the world. Not always a good thing or even an interesting thing but naked brains are never entirely safe.

Comments

[elisi]

Oh, you don't want to read that. Really. I went from cautiously optimistic (with a few reservations, like *why* was Buffy living in a castle?), to incredulous (Warren? Seriously?), to disappointed (why is Faith all on her own [for no apparent reason]?), to... I can't even remember. I think I was actually pissed off at one point, before I decided that clearly Joss had been smoking some top quality crack and there was no possible way of taking it seriously, and decided to mock it instead. (Then it turned so silly that even mockage became a moot point. But it sure is entertaining.)

ETA2: OK, if you're desperately curious my posts start here. Although looking back I can't believe I actually wrote so much. If only I could go back and somehow retrieve all that time...

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Ah, thanks! I didn't join the online fandom til Wolves at the Gate so it's fun to look back at older discussion of these issues.

I had a thought today about one of the greatest weaknesses of Season 8. The format doesn't allow time to linger on a intensely emotional moment. My fanfic, Heartbent, was an effort to let one of those intense emotional moments breath a bit more, exploring the connection between Buffy and Xander as he's grieving over Renee. It was only given one panel in WatG 4 where he drops to his knees hugging her and it was the most emotional moment of the season so far IMO.

Season 8 requires more active involvement from the audience in recreating the characters in our minds. Using our imagination to hear the characters' voices and extend the action suggested by the art of the panels. To fill in the blanks between panels and imagine all the things that didn't happen on the page.

[elisi]

Ah, thanks! I didn't join the online fandom til Wolves at the Gate so it's fun to look back at older discussion of these issues.
Not sure 'fun' is how I'd term my posts... (One thing I noticed, looking back, was how many people on my flist were reading & discussing/posting about s8 when it they first came out. Now there's... beer_good_foamy and moscow_watcher - generally writing all the stuff I'm half-thinking but can't be bothered to put down - and stormwreath and aycheb, writing more positive analysis. Everyone else has just given up.)

I had a thought today about one of the greatest weaknesses of Season 8. The format doesn't allow time to linger on a intensely emotional moment.
Not sure it's just the format... After the Fall (and all the Spike comics) handle emotionally heavy scenes very well (IMHO of course). I think the main problem (and this has been something I've said from the start) is the missing time between 'Chosen' and the start of s8. We do not know how the characters ended up where they are, and that - for most people - creates an instant emotional disconnect between the characters in the comics and those on screen. Actually, the whole thing is very cleverly (and wittily) demonstrated in this post.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Not sure 'fun' is how I'd term my posts

Nah, I'm the odd duck who enjoys reading a dissenting opinion (from my own, that is) as long as it's well-thought out.

After the Fall (and all the Spike comics) handle emotionally heavy scenes very well (IMHO of course)

The most recent heartbreaking event in AtF #15 being a good example. But I think Season 8 falls victim to having a bigger agenda than AtF, a more sprawling story that necessitates being pushed forward at a faster pace. AtF has been one big arc pretty much or has been described as a long Angel movie/mini-series. Where as Buffy is trying to do the Season format but we're losing the time needed to really dig into these emotional moments. Compare AtF with multiple panels of Angel holding Connor to just the one of Buffy and Xander in S8 #15. In AtF the moment of grief lingers, in Buffy it seems to be over too soon.

[elisi]

Nah, I'm the odd duck who enjoys reading a dissenting opinion (from my own, that is) as long as it's well-thought out.
Well you might enjoy it then. (Although I think over time it changes from well-thought out to wtf?)

AtF has been one big arc pretty much or has been described as a long Angel movie/mini-series. Where as Buffy is trying to do the Season format but we're losing the time needed to really dig into these emotional moments.
That is very true. s8 is certainly ambitious, but it should have a narrower focus, I think - there are so many characters and different stories, that it is hard to keep track of them all, especially since there is so long between issues. The comic format lends itself far better to single, major stories. (I *adore* comic books, my favourite probably being Elfquest - and now *there* is an epic tale that just *works*!)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

If you look beyond Spike/Angel-centric fandom (where the comics still do pretty well considering that Spike/Angel ain't in 'em) there's plenty of discussion (on whedonesque for example) and they're definitely holding their own in terms of sales and 'best of' lists. But as we keep saying to each other it's all subjective, in which case 'my friends don't like it either' is hardly an argument.

Subjectively speaking, the way Lynch beats you over the head with his emotional beats is one of my major irritations with the AtF comics. Particularly as so many of them seem to echo what's been done on the show already (Connor gets his memories back) but turn it up to eleven (Connor gets his memories back to when he was a fetus!!!) and thereby miss all the nuance of the original.

We do not know how the characters ended up where they are
We don't know but it's easy and fun to infer. I rather like it when the story assumes the audience isn't stupid.

[elisi]

But as we keep saying to each other it's all subjective, in which case 'my friends don't like it either' is hardly an argument.
True. And I'm sure that there are a lot of people for whom the focus of the story is just not interesting, since most fans are very selective these days about what kind of story they read (Spuffy, Spangel, Fanged Four, Giles/Anya, Willow-centric), and s8 is missing something for them. And yes, my flist is overwhelmingly made up of Spike & Spuffy fans. But... the reaction I kept seeing re s8 (and kept having myself) was 'Who are these people and what have they done with my characters?' (Also, surely if it is supposed to be canon, then it ought to appeal to everyone who was a fan of the show? I'm not saying they should *like* it, since opinion on the show itself is so very divided, but they ought to recognise it as in essence the same thing.)

Subjectively speaking, the way Lynch beats you over the head with his emotional beats is one of my major irritations with the AtF comics.
I see your point, but it is not something that bothers me, personally. And, a lot of the stuff is wonderfully new. :)

We don't know but it's easy and fun to infer. I rather like it when the story assumes the audience isn't stupid.
Thinking about it, I would much have preferred the story about how Buffy ended up where she is. What happened to change her, how did she become the withdrawn, ruthless leader we see in s8? Yes, my favourite thing of all is character development, so I am biased, but I like to see a journey, not having to make one up myself. (One of the major problems with S1 of Torchwood was not knowing Jack's story, and thus not understanding great swathes of his motivation. But they fixed that, and whilst that season will never be 'good' in any sense of the word, it makes a lot more sense on re-watch.)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

they ought to recognise it as in essence the same thing
One of the standard way early season fans dismiss S6/7 is to say they don't recognise the characters. That their Buffy/Willow/Xander Giles would never do that. I think the phrase is really just shorthand for not recognising the characters they used to like/not *liking* the characters.

The withdrawn, ruthless leader we see in s8
That's not who I see. It sounds like Angel in his beige period, which was a story that hit a lot of people's buttons and it feels as if some people would *like* to see that to the point of seizing on every piece of evidence that could point that way while ignoring all the indications of the contrary. In terms of sharing thoughts and feelings S8 Buffy has been closer to Xander than she's been for years, at least as open with Dawn and Willow as they are with her and her relationship with Satsu was very honest and direct.

This year the issue isn't her ability to connect with friends/family/loved ones but with humanity as a whole. Thing is she's never done that. She was an outsider at high school (like Holden said). She recruited the rest of her class (but no wider than that) to act as cannon fodder in the battle with mayor but those connections were not maintained. The only people she made any effort with in college were Parker and Riley, she never made friends at the Doublemeat Palace and while her school councillor role had potential Cassie died and Amanda was a potential. It's a flaw that's been hidden in plain sight throughout the series and I love way it's being made central now.

As for ruthless I remember the Buffy who pulverized the Master's bones, enjoyed dropping an church organ on Spike and firing that stolen rocket launcher. Or the Buffy who was prepared to let the whole multiverse be destroyed so she could spend a few seconds longer as Dawn's protector. She's always had ruthless in her just what it's used in service of has changed and I like Buffy all fired up with a cause that's bigger than herself and her friends/family/boyfriend. I like seeing a woman with power dealing with the host of new issues that brings with it. It's not as if she doesn't have doubts or qualms about what she's doing.

[elisi]

I think the phrase is really just shorthand for not recognising the characters they used to like/not *liking* the characters.
That is very true, but speaking for me *personally* that was never the case. 'Liking' them is not something I've ever been bothered by. F.ex. I don't 'like' the AR, but I can't deny that it isn't OOC for Spike to behave how he did, and I understand why they went that route. I 'like' a lot of things in s8, but still think it OOC.

at least as open with Dawn and Willow as they are with her
No arguments there!

This year the issue isn't her ability to connect with friends/family/loved ones but with humanity as a whole.
I started writing out this whole thing about the Slayers being Watcher-less, and Buffy's job necessitating her being hidden, but it wasn't going anywhere, so I'll spare you my rambling.

Re. Buffy's ruthlessness, then the examples you use are all about her being emotionally invested in something, and her actions spring from that. It wasn't ruthlessness that made her ready to sacrifice the world in The Gift, but reaching her limit and being unable to kill her own sister - i.e. love. Of course she has to be ruthless in doing her job - she can't hesitate when it comes to killing things - but that doesn't mean that she is by nature a ruthless person. As she tells Kendra, her emotions give her power. She knows this, and uses it. (In S7 f.ex. she tries her very best to be ruthless, especially in 'Get It Done', and we see how uncomfortable this makes her.)

Having pondered this whole comic-book-ness in the last few days, then I think that when it comes to AtF it flows naturally from the show. I can analyse that comic as if it were the show, even though the format is vastly reduced. The characters' actions and motivations can be traced back directly to their history, and I always understand where they come from, whether I like the developments or not. I can't do that with s8 - increasingly, the comic and the show are at odds in their portrayal of these people, and although it might be possible to join them up it requires a lot of mental gymnastics, a willingness to jump over the huge gaps that have been created. s8 can be analysed on it's own, and there is certainly enough there to work with, but I quite simply can't get comic and canon to align in any meaningful way. I hope that makes my position clearer?

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I don't think ruthless and emotionless are quite the same thing or that S8 Buffy is emotionless but I understand your position. I guess the academic in me just wishes you'd put in a few more caveats to show that you understand mine. My interpretation of the TV series including the characterisation is very different from yours but I think (well I would, wouldn't I) still consistent with what we saw and heard. For *me* the S8 story including the characterisations may be surprising but once I get over the surprise those characters are still completely recognisable, are indeed a logical evolution from the people *I* knew on the TV show. AtF characterisations, apart from Illyria being dumbed down to a non too bright barbarian princess, are consistent but not surprising. However, I'll admit to being no great judge of them because Angel the series was always more like brain candy and the comics are like less tasty candy.

[elisi]

For *me* the S8 story including the characterisations may be surprising but once I get over the surprise those characters are still completely recognisable, are indeed a logical evolution from the people *I* knew on the TV show.
I can see it, if I really, really try. I think my problem is that s8 has just been such a monumental disappointment (sort of a bit like what Disney did to The Jungle Book), that I don't think the merits outweigh the compromises. I'm glad that some people feel different, and wish I could see what you see. Maybe I will once it's finished.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

We be not of the same blood you and I. The Disney Jungle book is a work of transcendant genius that I saw 6 times when I was 6 years old and came to believe it really was the only movie in all the world and that was good. Modern children are less easily fooled but still singing along to "I wanna be like you" with James has been one of the great pleasures of parenthood:-)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

True, it's where the absence of the musical component of the show is most obvious but I also like that the comics format lets the reader choose how long to linger on a panel. The white out effect they use at the end of The Chain has that intensity partly because its placement at the end of the issue forces you to linger a little but you still choose how long. So swings and roundabouts.

With the specific example you give I actually like that that moment was so fleeting. Partly because it trusts the audience to fill in the gap but also to give it much more weight would have made Xander's reaction to Renee's death look more significant than her death itself, which would have really pushed things over into 'girl in a refrigerator' territory for me.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Perhaps this is unfair of me to say, but well...I care more about Xander's reaction and how this affects him than what happened to Renee. I don't know if it's because she was a lesser-developed character stuck in the comic medium (doesn't seem as real as if she were a character brought over from the TV show nor was she around long to become very three-dimensional) or if it's because Xander is one of the main characters. But ultimately, Xander is my main focus for Renee's role in the plot. It's like how Marti Noxon would say the writers would be pitching a plot story and they'd keep this question in mind: 'how does this make Buffy feel?' That was always the focus for the show - how everything affects Buffy. And in this case, I feel the focus is how does Renee's death affect Xander.

Renee's opening scene with her internal monologue was beautiful and near perfect. Perhaps there is a strong argument to be made for the brevity of the latter moment between Xander and Buffy, that brevity doing justice to Renee's death. But ultimately, I would have liked to be keyed in to Xander's grieving process like we saw with Buffy after losing Angel or her mother, with Willow after losing Oz and Tara, etc. Maybe if it didn't happen in #15, that would have given it enough space to not detract from Renee's death scene. But the momentum of the comics means there was no opportunity to pause and see Xander's intense emotions. By #16 when we check back in with him, he's telling Buffy and Willow that he's dealing and doesn't want to dwell on it and urging Willow to fill him in on all the kinky details. Moving on full speed ahead.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Not unfair but not entirely relevant, at least to the woman in a refrigerator point, which this year has become something of a sore point (and I've only just started reading comics). It's just that I don't think you can read these things entirely in a vacuum.

I'm sure that when Green Lantern found his girlfriend, or the carved up pieces of her, in his refrigerator fans of that book would have felt more invested in his character development than her death and they would have had a point. It's when you begin to realise that her fate is not the tragic exception but the overwhelming rule for female or minority characters in comics (and other media).

I'm actually quite the faint-hearted feminist when it come to reacting against these things, the only one I'm really prepared to go against the barricades for is the full Green Lantern where the woman is brutally killed to spur the hero into vengeance (and make a man of him). With the extremely nasty subtext that the woman's degrading death was actually a good and even necessary thing. I was very, very glad Xander didn't get to go Charles Bronson on Toru the way some fans seemed to hope. We did also get a longer scene of his reaction to her death with the scattering of her ashes so overall I found the story very satisfying but I have a weakness for emotional restraint. Maybe it's a British thing. More tea?